John, forgive me if I'm side tracking your point, but it crossed my mind that this quote:

"At some point, like Machen did in the early 20th century with liberalism, we are going to be forced to admit that what passes under the banner of evangelicalism simply is not Christian, no matter how many Christian trappings are retained."

is a sentiment one might find in the emerging church. It contains the same sense of dissatisfaction with what we've become. It bears the marks of being disgruntled that what we've been as the church isn't genuine or authentically who we were created to be.

They may be proposing an answer to this lack of authenticity that is in error, or that we may not embrace. I believe this sentiment though, is a motivation prevalent with emerging conversations.

I agree it's a huge part of emerging conversations, but the dissatisfaction with evangelicalism has been around and discussed much longer. I've said before that I prefer not to affiliate myself with evangelicalism.

Like most virtues, the virtue of finding authentic Christianity has two opposing vices. Accepting everything, swallowing anything, and an exaltation of tolerance and the key virtue of Christianity is the universalism that I'm sure is very familiar and we would take great pains to avoid.

The other side is what I'd term the Roger Williams approach, being so anxious to find the "real church" that we keep reforming until we're only worshipping with our spouse, if that.

I think the decision to close on Christmas day is deplorable. I think there is some silliness in evangelicalism, and surely even more theological weakness. Problem is I've yet to encounter a theological "system" that has it altogether, nor a denomination/church without its silliness. And I've got my own silliness I'm sure. But unless my fellow evangelicals (and other Christians) are transgressing some bright-shining-clear-doctrinal, Mere Christianity-type, boundaries, I'm not going to be thinking that the new Geneva is around the corner.

Ahh, I wish I could edit my comments, should read "tolerance AS the key virtue of Christianity".

I know, Roger, that you connect better with a reformed heritage. For me, I relate back to the great awakening, and the other camp meeting revivals in the American faith. It was in the midst of this time that we began to emphasize a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, a personal turning over of our individual lives to his lordship. This aspect of evangelicalism is something that I can't leave behind. I may push on it and question how it may be distorting my understanding of the larger truth of God, but this is an important part of my own faith journey. I was one who recommitted my life to Christ every summer at camp from fourth grade onward. I worked at the same camp for 10 summers. We had several thousand students a summer and in my experience, the vast majority, maybe 80-90% either turned to Christ as Lord and Savior or rededicated their lives to Christ. It was my sense that God worked in that time. It was powerful, and it shaped me in ways I can't ignore and don't want to turn my back on.

I too have a reformed underpinning. Though I resonate with some of the criticisms of Evangelicalism, and try to wrestle with them, I'm not ready or willing to leave the evangelical label. I'm not a post-evangelical. I may be wrestling with it. I may be trying to examine where it has skewed my vision, but it is still an important part of who I am.

Just thinking back, before the emerging church, the only experiences I had with people critical of evangelicalism were liberal Christians, and those "considerably to the right of me". It's possible the White horse inn was critical of it. I always resonnated with them, though, as my central theology was very reformed. I guess I was a Reformed Evangelical.

I too think it's odd for any Christian church to close on Christmas day. After all, what are we about? So I took a local survey of my area, and found that the following churches hold services this Christmas Day, in alphabetical order: Baptist, Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, and a variety of churches under the banner of Christ Church or Christian Churches or Church of God.

Your posts here on the problems with evangelicals and denominations are interesting, Micah, Bill, Roger. For one thing, the basis of faith on a personal relationship with Christ goes back farther than American revival-based worship, doesn't it? Isn't it evident in the New Testament?

Maybe a post-denominational movement will crop up at some point--what do you think?

Vicky, in my limited reading, the perspective of a personal relationship wtih Jesus Christ does predate 'evangelicalism' but it is a peculiarly American phenomenon (at least its origins are, it hasn't stayed within our borders.) To give you a glimpse of the rise of individualism, before the puritans left for America, they pushed for a novel addition to the book of common prayer - a service for the celebration of a human life. It was the first time a 'funeral' took a turn toward being a celebration of an individual's life before God.

While I don't deny there are antecedents in scripture, we do not find this to be a regular part of the tradition of the church for the first 1600 years. The mystics focused on personal spiritual experiences. The monastics focused on personal piety, prayer and study, and so a focused individual life on the persuit of godliness (in a communal setting though.) The larger experience was a much more communal one in perspective of how we relate to God.

The concept of a personal interaction with God is not new, though maybe a little less empasized through mosth of the tradition I've seen. The framing of that interaction as a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, relating to Christ as a friend like no other, entering a love relationship with Christ using some of our romantic relationship language; American Christianity was pretty unique in bringing these qualities into a collection of what has become in my understanding, Evangelicalism.

Incidentally, Vicky, and I don't mean this at all as a challenge to your position that there are scriptural antecedents to this perspective, but what passage or passages were you thinking of that supported or led to this perspective?

Bill, there are a number of passages pertaining to our relationship with God as believers (in the OT) and Christians (in the New T.). First I think of John 15: 13-16, where Jesus says "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command...I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made know to you." (NIV) Here I think the parameters of close relationship with God are laid out through Jesus' words. Then there's Matt. 12: 49-50, "...here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Jesus implies that believers are in family relationship with him and with one another. Also, see John 10:14-15, 13:34-35, 14:23, along with Romans 8: 26-27, I Peter 5:7, James 4:8 ("Draw near to God and he will draw near to you") James 2:23, and Heb. 13:5. In the Old Testament, I also find many descriptions of people being in relationship with God, as when Enoch "walked with God." (Gen. 5:22) From my perspective, these are just a smattering of texts, among the many that describe individual relationships with God, close and personal.

I'm also aware that cultural contexts have changed vastly and radically since these texts were written. Some people would say that I'm overstepping the bounds by finding evidence of peoples' relationship with God here, because the cultural concept of relationship may have changed over the past thousand or more years. I agree: much has changed, and my reading may be off-target. Perhaps the "modern" concept of relationship with God did indeed develop among the revival tents of nineteenth-century America. But I am not yet convinced of that.

Vicky

Vicky

Remember - the choice to close on Christmas day is fundamentally rooted in the whole "seeker sensitive" model of ministry. Cally Parkinson, a spokeswoman for Willow Creek Community Church in South Barrington, Illinois, recently explained it in this way:

"If our target and our mission is to reach the unchurched, basically the people who don't go to church, how likely is it that they'll be going to church on Christmas morning?"

In that same interview she indicated that church leaders had decided that organizing services on a Christmas Sunday would not be the most effective use of staff and volunteer resources. The last time Christmas fell on a Sunday was 1994, and only a small number of people showed up to pray.

By these things, we ought to be renewed in our thinking about what the church is, and why it is that we assemble in the first place. Closing a church service because what one thinks the world will be doing is disgraceful - may the Lord continue to uphold us to a higher standard than that...

MJB
The Armoury

Exactly right imo.

I'm so glad churches are closing--that way i don't feel guilty being at home and spending time with my family. That 1 hour is so precious!